|
Post by smartarse on Dec 13, 2005 16:49:44 GMT 10
So far i've resisted the urge to start a thread on Israeli politics because its such a non-stop hurricane of people, places and events... plus i sort of assume that any of you who are seriously trying to get your act together would be keeping a eye on the major developments. But here's a story i just read that i don't think has been widely reported yet, but nevertheless is very significant. So its time to start a thread! www.csmonitor.com/2005/1213/p06s02-wome.htmlnow i've literally just finished reading it, so i haven't double checked anything i'm about to say, but here are 2 observations about this new 'group' 1) Ashrawi is very cool. i've seen her interviewed many times, and she says all the right things. If my memory serves, Ashrawi was once part of Arafat's cabinet, but he kicked her out because she won't stop criticising the corruption of the PA. I also seem to remember that she was the first winner of the Sydney Peace Prize 2) Rabbo - and this is what i'm really not 100% on - was one of the architects of the so-called "Geneva Plan" (which i thought was pretty cool). If you don't remember/know the Geneva plan then you should. From a first principle's perspective the 'spectrum' of views on the resolution of the Middle East peace process goes something like this: Geneva plan (talk 1st, peace 2nd)
Road Map (simultaneously, but slowly, pursue both)
Disengagement/Likud policy (peace 1st, talk 2nd) the Geneva plan was written by seasoned Olso negotiators from both sides, but was never endorced by the PA, Israel or the US (the Arab states had already released their own "Saudi Plan" and most gave soft support to the Road Map under US pressure). But i might be wrong about Rabbo, he might not have been involved. someone can check it (meaning noone will and eventually my curiosity will get the better of me and i'll do it...) so this new 3rd party is an interesting group - they have good peace cred, and Fayyad has cred with the international investor community so they should hopefully be taken seriously. If people are confused about the situation in Israel, or the astonishingly brief 1st P 'spectrum', then post here and me or someone else should be able to clear it up.
|
|
|
Post by mel on Dec 13, 2005 20:35:57 GMT 10
Tim, when you mean the 'spectrum' of views on the resolution of the Middle East peace are you referring to the Israel Palestine problem or are you talking more broadly about peace in the Middle East in general?
mel
|
|
|
Post by Need a lift? on Dec 14, 2005 0:29:38 GMT 10
Palistinian Yasser Abed Rabbo and Israeli Yossi Beilin are listed as the authors of the "Geneva Plan", and it's even on one of Tim's favourites, the Jim Lehrer Newshour site. www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec03/peaceproposal_12-3.htmlInterestingly, the following page published just a couple of months earlier is strangely similar, just two different authors (both former Israeli and Palistinian ministers) and this one's called "The People's Voice". www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec03/peaceplan_10-20.htmlThe difference is The People's Voice was desperately seeking US backing, while the Geneva Plan had a hell of a lot more weight behind it, with Carter on board (when isn't Carter on board?), a mailout to every Israeli household and Palistinian newspapers and Powell's tacit support. Interestingly, under questioning Rabbo claims Geneva is complimentary, not contradictory to the Road Map, although he never goes into great depth on how that is the case.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Dec 14, 2005 8:00:26 GMT 10
Thats actually a very good question Mel, i'm glad you asked.
Generally when people (the media, commentators, academics) talk about "middle east peace" they mean Israel/Palestine, and across the spectrum of views i outlined, the focus is on Israel/Palestine. BUT, and here's where things get really interesting, part of the 'Saudi Plan' was a comprehensive peace settlement, not only between Israel and Palestine, but with the neighbouring Arab states.
(just briefly, the Saudi Plan was that Israel should withdraw to its pre-1967-war borders, allowing a Palestinian state in all of the occupied territories, and in exchange Israel would be formally recognised - and sign peace treaties with - all the Arab states who had been part of the 6-day war. it was a very interesting plan, but still-born because it seemed to involve total surrender of East Jerusalem - amongst other objections by the Israelis).
So the answer to your question is; both. Because the Palestinian question is so intimately linked to the political-stability (or lack thereof) of the whole region, its almost impossible to seperate them - although for academic purposes, they sometimes are.
Does that clear things up (a liitle)?
Julian: thank you for looking that up, i'm relieved to find that i wasn't wildly mistaken about Rabbo.
Newshour is an awesome program - people should watch it on SBS, but if you can't, the website is reasonably good with a decent amount of audio and video files.
|
|
|
Post by Tim J on Dec 15, 2005 13:33:59 GMT 10
This has just hit the news, some of you may have hread the news that the reigning Palestinian Party, Fatah (headed by current PNA President Mahmoud Abbas) has split. The split occured in response to the upcoming parliamentary elections, the new group headed by jailed leader Marwan Barghuti represents what some call the 'young gurad'. The group is particularly imprortant in the Gaza Strip where it is considered the most influential group, and at time the most violent. Barghouti's younger group is also very popular amongst those who are sick and tired of the old guard's corruption. It will be interesting to see what happens with so many groups headed by popular leaders (i.e. Fatah and Ahmed Qorei, this splinter group and Garghouti, the new party spoken about earlier headed by Hana Ashrawi and Hamas which after the assasination of Yassin and Rantissi is without a key unified leader) If you want to read more about the split the SBS World News site is showing the story at www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=126332®ion=6or the Jerusalem Post also has an article on it at www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1134309581046&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull.
|
|
|
Post by Tim J on Dec 15, 2005 13:34:47 GMT 10
This has just hit the news, some of you may have heard the news that the reigning Palestinian Party, Fatah (headed by current PNA President Mahmoud Abbas) has split. The split occured in response to the upcoming parliamentary elections, the new group headed by jailed leader Marwan Barghuti represents what some call the 'young gurad'. The group is particularly imprortant in the Gaza Strip where it is considered the most influential group, and at time the most violent. Barghouti's younger group is also very popular amongst those who are sick and tired of the old guard's corruption. It will be interesting to see what happens with so many groups headed by popular leaders (i.e. Fatah and Ahmed Qorei, this splinter group and Garghouti, the new party spoken about earlier headed by Hana Ashrawi and Hamas which after the assasination of Yassin and Rantissi is without a key unified leader) If you want to read more about the split the SBS World News site is showing the story at www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=126332®ion=6or the Jerusalem Post also has an article on it at www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1134309581046&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull.
|
|
|
Post by smartarse on Dec 15, 2005 16:00:40 GMT 10
Humm, it seems Tim J's post was so important he posted it twice!
Seriously though, thats actually a very significant development and i must say that i'm hearing about it for the first time on the MAD forum! (maybe MAD should branch out from the MDR and get into the CNN-style news market!)
Its funny that i started this thread by saying how continuous and difficult Israeli politics is and then a day later the main Palestinian party splits!
Reading that SBS report stretched my memory, but i think the reason why they say that Mohammed Dahlan is so "powerful" is because before he was brought into the Cabinet (by Abbas) he was security chief in Gaza and head of Tanzim - the (violent) youth wing of Fatah - so that meant that Dahlan had control over the most powerful organised paramilitary force in Gaza and influence on one of the radical militant groups. Thats why he was/is so influencial.
He's still linked to Tanzim, and he would have had influence over who replaced him as Gaza chief (which is why he was placed in charge of internal security - because large parts of the security forces were loyal to him) so he's a very powerful addition to the ticket.
Barghuti is just a figurehead. He's in prison and thats where he'll stay so people like Dahlan will be in charge of day-to-day planning.
Again, if i remember right Dahlan was a member of the Camp David (II) team, so he's shown some commitment to peace (of course the Palestinians rejected that offer, but the reasons for that are contested and complex).
|
|
|
Post by smartarse on Dec 21, 2005 14:30:16 GMT 10
|
|
|
Post by smartarse on Jan 27, 2006 8:30:19 GMT 10
Weeeeeeeeeell.... anit democracy a funny ol' thing? Hamas shatter Fatah and completely turn the middle-east debate on its on head in one move... I'll give you 3 guesses as to the what the 'hot' topic about Israel is now... www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/26/news/vote.php# (if people re-read the first post on this thread about the formation of a new political party by a group of independant 'peace-niks', which i was a big fan of, you'll see in this IHT article that they were called "third way" and they only managed to win 2 seats.... why do i always support the ideological minority??? I hope those two seats were Fayyad and Ashrawi. i really like Ashrawi) www.csmonitor.com/2006/0127/p01s01-usfp.htmlCan't wait for this topic...
|
|
|
Post by Old Man Sashi on Jan 27, 2006 12:38:46 GMT 10
my favorite bit about the whole Hamas gig has been the fact exit polls indicated Fatah would have a narrow victory...and yet Hamas has pretty much smashed through..
|
|
|
Post by Tim J on Jan 27, 2006 14:08:34 GMT 10
intersetingly, the response of different members of the international community, including members of the EU, the US, the Arab world and Israeli politicians. The BBC has a nice site to see what the views of other politicians are at news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4650196.stm. My favourites come from Benjamin Netanyahu who said "Today, Hamastan was formed, a representative of Iran and in the image of the Taleban" (What a DICK!) And the quote of the day has to come from Amr Moussa, the Secretary General of the Arab League who said, "The US can't promote democracy but then reject the results of this democracy". Its interesting that the Bush policy in the Palestinian territories has been to both weaken the power of the PA through its assault on Yassar Arafat, while pushing for PLC elections. What the hell did he think was going to happen?
|
|
|
Post by julian on Jan 29, 2006 20:45:08 GMT 10
|
|
|
Post by smartarse on Feb 13, 2006 14:44:26 GMT 10
Here's a very interesting story - the Head of Israel's internal intelligence and security organisation was caught on tape saying it might have been better if Saddam had been left in power, and admiting that the Israeli judicial system is discriminatory against Arabs! www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1567635.htm
|
|
|
Post by smartarse on May 1, 2006 16:11:39 GMT 10
This is interesting news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4957830.stmIf i remember rightly there is a similar sort of arrangement in Egypt. One section struck me as a really good example of why we're better off without democracy in the Middle East (arguably) More than a decade ago, Israel and Jordan signed a peace treaty. But it is cold peace - there is little trade or travel between the two countries.
Among ordinary Jordanians, the treaty is deeply unpopular.
Imagine if there were open elections and the Muslim Brotherhood or Hezbollah stood candidates. How many seconds do you think it would take for them to announce the end of the peace treaty as one of their policies?
|
|
|
Post by english on May 11, 2006 9:58:54 GMT 10
more stuff on israel-palestine... news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4758471.stmand news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4756407.stmit will be interesting to see the response to these announcements and the repucussions... to my mind, sidelining the democratic bodies (no matter whose running them) sets a bad precedent, especially in a region which the US is trying to "force" democracy onto... although its a real-world alternative to aid-government debates and the whole "give the aid to the people rather than the government" lines that often come out... Those pages also provide more links to other israeli-palestine stories
|
|